Cocks and Robbers – WTFIWWY Live

This week: Remembering the reason for the season (and ruining it for children), how to fail pants and Woolly Willy goes into crime …

About Nash

Welcome to Radio Dead Air! It's "Wayne's World" meets the 21st Century as Nash, Tara, Stick Boy, Space Guy, Arlo P. Arlo and more delve into the deep...

11 comments

  1. Christmas was not stolen from pagans. The earliest written accounts of pagan holidays in late December are from about the 5th century AD. But the earliest written references to Christians observing a celebration of the Nativity in late December come from the 2nd century AD. What’s more, the Church Fathers attribute the timing of the celebration to the Jewish liturgical calendar.

    The “Christians stole it from the pagans!” argument AT BEST is a Confusion of Correlation and Causation Fallacy. Just because the celebrations occur at the same time, it does not mean that one group stole it from the other. There are so many pagan groups celebrating multiple holidays, it would be nearly impossible for the celebration of the Nativity not to overlap some holiday, regardless of what time of the year it had occurred. If Christmas had been in July, there would be people claiming that it was stolen from Independence Day.

    But Tara is spot on about St. Nicholas being a historic figure. He attended the Council of Nicea where he reportedly punched Arius in the face. He is most well known for rescuing children from slavery by secretly paying off their family debts. Which, if you think about it, is far more noble than making toys.

    Still, what the guy did was just asshole behavior.

    But for more information about the myth of “Christians stole it from pagans!”, look up the YouTube video, S76ZjrYOo8A, “Five Christmas Myths Busted” by RevFisk.

    • 32:20 – Biz Markie should include that in a new version of one of his old songs. “Pickin’ Boogers!”

    • They fuck you’re talking about mate? We have records of Saturnalia (~Dec. 17th-23rd) that predate Christianity. By a lot. Like, there’s stuff about changes made to the celebration of Saturnalia in 200 BC, so obviously it was being celebrated earlier than that.

      It’s just standard practice for ALL religions (the Romans did it, too, as well as many others) to adopt the customs of other peoples to make the religion more appealing (the best example of which is Easter… because Easter is the name of a pagan goddess).

      Plus I’m giving a massive side-eye to a great deal of this guy’s sources because they seem to be directly linked to a religious institute and therefore would contain a heavy amount of bias.

      • “I’m giving a massive side-eye to a great deal of this guy’s sources because they seem directly linked to a religious institute.”

        And that right there is a major part of your problem: You and other people like you aren’t willing to acknowledge the very real possibility that Christians had their own reasons for celebrating at this time, and that it had nothing to do with paganism. For one, it’s ad hominem; you’re not really dealing with his points, but rejecting them because of your own biases. It’s also the Correlation-Causation Fallacy I cited above: you assume we stole it; therefore any argument that we didn’t must be suspect. Never mind that there actually are writings in the Church Fathers that attribute the celebration’s time to the Jewish calendar; you assume it has to be pagan, therefor it must be pagan.

        And the strange thing is, I have yet to find any actual ancient sources that predate the 5th century that describe Saturnalia. Macrobius seems to be the main source of information, and he wrote much later. This isn’t to say that it wasn’t celebrated at the time, but only that what we know about it comes from much, much later. So I would actually be interested in any ancient sources you could site. As for my own ancient sources, I submit Hippolytus, Julius Africanus, Ephrem of Syra, and John Crysostom.

        As for other pagan holidays often associated with Christmas, most of them arose much later (Sol Invictus) or are from cultures that Christians didn’t have contact with at the time of the 2nd or 3rd centuries.

        • “I have yet to find any actual ancient sources that predate the 5th century that describe Saturnalia”
          Well then to be blunt, but you haven’t looked very hard. Lets go down a few shall we?
          Pliny the Younger (61 AD-113AD), describing a favourite room in his home to a friend named Gallus: “I find it delightful to sit there, especially during the Saturnalia, when all the rest of the house rings with the merry riot and shouts of the festival-makers.” So we know the festival exists, that there is much revelry, enough that Pliny wishes to distance himself from it

          Martial (c. 38AD-102AD): Named one his works “Apophoreta”, after a term for gift giving (because thats what the book is about), published in December and given out to his friends as part of the custom. In a few of his Epigrams he also gave us descriptions of how slaves were treated a bit more leniently

          A really nicely obvious one from Seneca the Younger (4 BC-65 AD) in his work entitled “Feasts and Fasting”: “It is the month of December, and yet the city is at this very moment in a sweat. Licence is given to the general merrymaking. Everything resounds with mighty preparations,—as if the Saturnalia differed at all from the usual business day! So true it is that the difference is nil, that I regard as correct the remark of the man who said: “Once December was a month; now it is a year.”
          So not only are we pretty damn sure that Saturnalia was in December, we can tell its not just a modern habit of pushing the preparation for it further and further forward. Isn’t that nice to know?

          Tacitus (56AD-120AD) in his Annals: Briefly describes the happenings around what we dub the Lord of Misrule, where a selected individual gets the role of being ‘king’ and giving other people orders. In this instance the role gets taken by Nero (yes, that Nero) who predictably starts forcing humiliations on those he doesn’t like

          Lucian (c. 125AD-180AD): The appropriately named “Saturnalia” gives us quite a bit of information on how the festival was run, to the extent that I’m going to have to advise you to read it yourself because I cannot actually quote it all.

          What Macrobius wrote is similar to the works of Charles Perrault, or the Brothers Grimm; he’s compiled a lot of stuff, but said stuff was around long before Macrobius was, as I’ve just demonstrated (I can keep providing sources, fyi, but I thought five was a nice number to stop at).
          At this point, if I were doing a proper essay, I might turn to assessing your evidence and sources. Except…you haven’t actually provided any, have you? You’ve thrown out a series of names, but haven’t at any point said which of their works you’re drawing from to get your conclusions. I don’t even know which Hippolytus you’re referring to, there are several after all. Kind of makes me wonder if you actually know what you’re talking about, or if you’re just parroting misunderstood facts from that youtube video you linked to that I couldn’t watch more than half a minute of

        • “Why won’t they accept my biased sources? WHY??” Come on, man.

      • What I’m trying to get at is this: the people who are best qualified to tell you why early Christians decided to celebrate the Feast of the Nativity at this particular time of the year would be the ancient Christians themselves. And yet, that seems to be the last place anyone wants to look for the answer to that question. Instead, it’s to much later Roman sources and to modern scholars trying to make names for themselves.

  2. MidnightScreeningsman2014

    Being a Christian but not big on church myself I say fuck that guy in the first story ya zombie people don’t hold Jesus over Santa that’s why they also call Santa saint Nicholas and I’m not surprised either that MTV tried to play off Santa as being Satan.

    As for South Carolina and the porn ban, that shit is so stupid but what also made me pissed off is the porn puts our children in harm’s way. Well if course it could if they get mixed up with the wrong people, on porn websites there is basically 0 percent of child pornography on that site and if you could call teen girls child pornography then yeah but there literally trained actresses so what’s the point

    Also the woman in that last story deserve some sort of Guinness record for the most sex toys(probably) ever thrown at a robbery I mean those woman deserve a medal a record or something and also saw Grady on the green screen at the last story

  3. That last story makes me think of the scene from Bob’s Burgers where the kids launch the dildos in the sex shop while shouting “Release the personal massagers!” in order to form a diversion for their dad to steal a mannequin (That was a weird episode, but a sweet one :D). Anyways, I’m glad this episode ended on a happier story because that first story made my blood boil. Fuck that pastor, seriously. What’s he going to do next? Kick a walker out from a handicapped child’s arms? Throw a puppy against a window? Shit on a homeless man? Really, he’s got the ball rolling by telling children that Santa doesn’t exist while they’re waiting to meet him. I’m not super Christian or anything, but I know for a fact that Jesus would be disappointed in this fuckwad of a “disciple”.

Leave a Reply