The Racists have really gone out of the woodwork lately

Discussion in 'Politics & Debate' started by Hoodieninja, May 15, 2017.

  1. Hoodieninja

    Hoodieninja Active Member

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  2. Critic_Critic

    Critic_Critic More Trophy Points Please

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    I was just looking through comments about this as it trended on Facebook, and it's absurd to me how a White Supremacist rally being condemned by virtually every publication I saw reporting on it still managed to inspire countless upon countless Facebookers less interested in calling out this idiotic and abusive wave of racism, and more interested in defending a statue - under the belief that somehow without a monument glorifying the worst aspects of our history, we'd actually be forgetting our history. To quote one horrifying post, that's "letting the Nazis win" [by the extension of referring to the sentiment "never forget", which somehow means we have to keep racist statues around].

    I mean, you literally have these guys shouting "Heil Trump!" and giving the Nazi salute, and people still believe BLM are the real violent fascist movement. (Again, actual comments) And don't get me started on the notion that it's "white-washing" our history to remove this statue, but it isn't to ignore or minimize slavery, as a heinous crime on human rights that the United States participated in, and the South fought to continue.

    Fuckity fuck fuck.
     
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  3. Ratin8tor

    Ratin8tor More Trophy Points Please

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    Wow, that is literally an angry mob with torches. Wonder why they didn't grab any pitchforks to complete the cliche.

    Still, it's a bugger, isn't it. You could make all sorts of reasonable, rational arguments about why the statue should stay, but you have to conclude with "therefore, I agree with the racists", and any defense you could have had is immediately lost due to bad association. You either disagree with the racist mob or you are a racist.

    It's a shame a debate on whether the statue should stay can't happen, cos it could be interesting, but there's no reasonable way of defending it at this point.
     
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  4. JimB

    JimB More Trophy Points Please

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    Well, citronella tiki torches, anyway, which I will never stop laughing at, but yes, torches.
     
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  5. Felis Leo

    Felis Leo More Trophy Points Please

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    ...Under the cover of darkness to disguise their relatively small numbers.
     
  6. YouAskedForIt

    YouAskedForIt More Trophy Points Please

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    Considering the Klan's presence in the South for so long, I would think this doesn't change much.
     
  7. Critic_Critic

    Critic_Critic More Trophy Points Please

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    Assuming there is reasonable, rational arguments about why the statue should stay. Theoretically. ;)
     
  8. YouAskedForIt

    YouAskedForIt More Trophy Points Please

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    OT I just got to the Star Trek Voyager Episode where Kim, Paris, Tuvac, and Neelix hit up a planet that makes you hallucinate a historical atrocity committed by the military regimen of the government what not. A monument on a battlefield that served as a psychotropic cautionary tale or something. It was pretty interesting.
     
  9. Dancingmadrb3

    Dancingmadrb3 More Trophy Points Please

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    Well the statue is of General Robert E Lee who is perhaps the greatest general the united states ever had even if he fought for the Confederacy he was a great general and is a respected figure even among those in the north and yes even African Americans.

    In fact the argument I would have for the statue is to still salute a great general but remember what side he did fight for which is unfortunately the confederacy and should be a reminder of even good people can fight for bad reasons.
    Also there are plenty of statues of not so great figures, Jefferson has a few as does Jackson not to mention Washington who I must remind you also came from Virginia, also was a great general and also owned slaves.
    Tearing down such a statue for me is actually a bad thing as such things must remain to remind us of the bad one person can do but also remember he was a human like the rest of us.
    I would say the same thing if this was a statue for Rommel, Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Theodore Roosevelt and other such figures who despite my respect for them still did some nasty things.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  10. Critic_Critic

    Critic_Critic More Trophy Points Please

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    Yeah, I don't buy the "statues remind us of the bad things these figures did" unless these statues literally have it etched into them "this guy fought to keep Black people as sub-human property owned by the Whites".

    You know what this statue says to me?
    [​IMG]
    Fucking Glorious American Hero!!

    Yeah, explain to me again how one will walk by this statue and come away thinking "Gee, this guy sure fought for a baaaaaad thing."
     
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  11. JimB

    JimB More Trophy Points Please

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    It's very obvious: SHUT UP YOU LIBTARD CUCK YOU'RE THE REAL NAZI MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN
     
  12. YouAskedForIt

    YouAskedForIt More Trophy Points Please

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    If he was the greatest general, then why didn't he become president? Electoral College?
     
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  13. J. McBain

    J. McBain More Trophy Points Please

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    The thing is despite being a horrible jerk, he is considered to be a fricking hero by some.
     
  14. Dancingmadrb3

    Dancingmadrb3 More Trophy Points Please

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    Nah Lee wasn't necessary it for politics and despite being and I quote
    He actually didn't like slavery as yes he owned slaves too but I think he realized his mistreatment of them and really only fought for the Confederate army because he did not want to fight against his own country which I remind you before the civil war each state was more it's own country than a collection of states. In fact the idea of America being one country only came after the civil war.
    Reading a history book or watching Ken Burns the civil war kind of sheds light on such matters.

    But hey fuck history I guess when we can all be a bunch of self righteous dick heads and or racist asshats instead.
    Sounds fun to me, quick since I am defending the statue and obviously a racist asshat give me my funny looking pointed white hood and a giant neon sign saying I love Hitler or something of that sorts.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  15. YouAskedForIt

    YouAskedForIt More Trophy Points Please

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    Well, It's more a matter of the strength of the Union as it was put at that time. As far as I can tell, Spanish and Portuguese territories were already well established by the time the colonies were in place, but I don't really know the history of Canada opposite "America". Ironic enough that the French Caribbean is considered Latin America while French Canada isn't. Anyways, what was really to stop Canada from saying that that they were just some British colonials all the same? I don't know.
     
  16. Dancingmadrb3

    Dancingmadrb3 More Trophy Points Please

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    Yeah such things are a minefield for history buffs like I am
     
  17. YouAskedForIt

    YouAskedForIt More Trophy Points Please

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    I just ask that you be careful.
     
  18. Dancingmadrb3

    Dancingmadrb3 More Trophy Points Please

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    Don't worry about me, I am actually just playing around a little here and there and mean no harm.
    But I am serious about historical preservation though, I mean if we are really this worked up over a statue just really hate to see other monuments being targeted or even locations.
    Hell why stop there when we can burn 1 or 20 dollar bills because they both have assholes on them.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  19. JimB

    JimB More Trophy Points Please

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    Realizing your mistreatment of people you own is a really shitty consolation prize. It's like saying, "Yeah, I may have raped her, but in my defense, I bought her a bunch of day-after pills!"

    Let's be clear, I'm not calling you a racist. I'm saying that's a weak-ass defense. I don't care if you personally like slavery when you've personally commanded the deaths of I can't guess how many people in part of a war to make sure people can still be owned as slaves.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  20. Felis Leo

    Felis Leo More Trophy Points Please

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    I think @Dancingmadrb3 raises some very good points.

    I personally do not like erasing or "sanitizing" history by destroying monuments, statues or historical artifacts, even if they are made in the images of people we now find despicable. For example, I was against the tearing down of statues of Lenin and Josef Stalin in Russia, despite my noted disgust towards Socialist and Communist dictatorships and the millions who died under them, for the same reason that I do not think Auschwitz death camp in Poland should be bulldozed to the ground. Erasing these artifacts damages our memory of the horrors perpetrated by these figures.

    Now, I do not think of General Robert E. Lee as being anywhere remotely comparable to Josef Stalin or the Nazis. He was a complex figure who was in some ways a moral paragon, and in many ways deeply flawed. He fought for the South not because he loved the institution of slavery, but because he loved his home state of Virginia. If there is anything that sums up Lee's character, I think it is this quote when he was offered a generalship in order to put down the Southern Rebellion by presidential adviser Francis P. Blair:

    "Mr. Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four millions of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?"

    I can imagine that over the next ten to twenty years, there will be calls to take down monuments to Thomas Jefferson for being a slave owner who may have raped his black slave mistress, and Washington who was also a slave owner and led campaigns against Native Americans. Perhaps the very state of Washington and National Capital's names will be changed in order to conform to modern sensibilities. Because if anyone is to be remembered, and if anyone's character is to be judged, it is to be judged by their very worst actions. My question to those who propose taking down statues of controversial figures is this: Where does it end? Eventually will only the flawless be allowed monuments?
     
  21. Dancingmadrb3

    Dancingmadrb3 More Trophy Points Please

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    Indeed and again maybe we would start burning money, tear down museums, heck blow up the white house too, and maybe even tear down the pyramids while we are at it.
     
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  22. JimB

    JimB More Trophy Points Please

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    As long as the monuments actually do something to educate people about those horrors, sure. If it's just a statue of a noble-looking man on a noble-looking horse bravely facing down Northern Aggression, then I question the historical value; particularly given how many people use that statue as a romanticized icon of a sanitized history to justify their own hateful social views. I think moving those kinds of monuments to museums where historical context will be provided is actually a pretty good idea.
     
  23. Critic_Critic

    Critic_Critic More Trophy Points Please

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    It's more like saying, "Yeah, I may have raped her, but it's not like I actually enjoyed it." Before continuing to rape her. Then leading a fight in a war to continue legalized rape.

    I said this was a bullshit argument before, and I'm going to say it again: NONE OF THESE ROBERT E. LEE STATUES SERVES AS A REMINDER OF THE HORRORS HE PERPETUATED BY FIGHTING TO KEEP BLACK PEOPLE AS SLAVES.

    Guess what? They're already sanitizing history. By their very nature of being a celebratory tribute hoisted up by people who DID NOT VIEW SLAVERY AS AN ABHORRENCE OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

    Show me a Robert E. Lee statue that casts him as a slave-owning human being who fought for other human beings to continue owning and persecuting their slaves, and I'll tell you it's worth keeping. Because right now, the statues we're finally rightfully upset about are the ones which represent a history where the Southern fight was a noble and just effort, and not the inhumane war to keep other human beings as property. It's a whitewashed history, and if any bit of your stance to accurately represent the crimes in our history was legit, you'd be right on-board with seeing these obsolete travesties taken down or replaced with something far more appropriate to the issues of our past.

    I think that's the most bizarre sensibility to take. It's like people genuinely think of slavery as being on a significant plane more justifiable than the holocaust.

    If as a result of your actions (and moreover, your intended actions) you enforce some of the most barbaric and cruel practices of the world's history, then you're culpable for it.

    As I'm sure many many many many Nazis did. So.... should we start putting up statues of the glorious Nazi soldier?

    There's something of a distinction to made when we're talking about figures who aren't celebrated for a separate aspect and part of their life than what we may find issue with - we're talking about someone considered "An American Hero" for HIS VERY ACTS of fighting to keep slavery legal. It's not just his very worst actions - it's the damn reason he's glorified to begin with.

    I'm fine with just getting rid of monuments which lionize the figureheads behind human rights violations. Monuments that only exist because said human rights violations were never seen as violations affecting actual human beings, and that attitude has still continued to this day. And something tells me that having monuments like that has certainly helped such attitudes persist as well as they have.

    Yes, please. Plaque that reads, "Robert E. Lee: Fighting To Keep The Black Man Down" please.
     
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  24. Felis Leo

    Felis Leo More Trophy Points Please

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    No. I am just not for destroying historical artifacts, even if they are glorifying figures who we now consider evil or who fought for causes we now consider evil.

    I agree, General Robert E. Lee is culpable for leading the South in a very-nearly successful war which costs the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in an effort to secede from the Union and keep the evil institution of slavery alive. And I still do not want his monument taken down.

    You know, I am forced to think on this, but I believe that the principle holds true, even in the case of the most evil. And my answer would still be the same. I would not want NEW Nazi monuments to be built. But if any had been erected by the Nazi German regime, I do not believe they should be torn down. Again, for the same reason that I do not believe monuments glorifying Josef Stalin or Vladimir Lenin should not be torn down. I am against the erasure of history, especially evil history.

    If you honestly believe that these monuments somehow negatively affect society, somehow causing people who might otherwise to be decent human beings to believe human rights violations are perfectly fine, that is your prerogative. I would have to see some form of evidence that such artifacts somehow turn people evil, as though they radiate some form of insidious malevolence like the Necronomicon. Of course, maybe after this statue is taken down, interracial harmony will suddenly bloom in that city, and it will be I who looks like the even greater fool for not having wished it to be removed.

    I am happy to grant that these monuments and statues should be appended with plaques that actually educate as to what the figures they lionize did, and the suffering they caused. But I have no wish to see them destroyed.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  25. Critic_Critic

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    Then lock them away in a vault (insert Indiana Jones joke), rather than on prominent display in a park named after the same glorious figure we now consider evil, since slavery is only now considered evil.

    Then I question your sense of personal culpability.

    If I kill hundreds of thousands of people in an effort to enslave hundreds of thousands more people, do I get statues put up in countless parks named after me?

    And I again point to the contradictory notion that taking down statues that falsify our sense of history is erasure of history, not corrective of history.

    Wait for it.

    Wait for it.


    [​IMG]

    Oh look. Visual confirmation.

    I am indifferent towards whether they are destroyed, altered, put away, moved, re-purposed, given plaques, or thrown into the bottom of the ocean, so long as we quit this routine habit of glorifying events and figures from our past despite their very being celebrating the most noxious and evil of our historical motives and actions, in the name of that rampant 'Merican patriotism that dictates people not be critical of country and history even in the worst of all things.

    Poor national hoarding habits is something of a rotten reason to keep them standing around as is.
     
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  26. Rebel24

    Rebel24 Active Member

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    I don't know if this has been mentioned on any other threads, but while we're on the subject of racists and bigots coming out of the woodwork...


    This video literally made me vibrate with anger and I don't know if I could watch it a second time.

    Edit: Due to the original video being taken down due to a copyright claim, I have replaced it with another YouTube video of the same incident.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  27. JimB

    JimB More Trophy Points Please

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    I got six and a half minutes in. I'm disappointed in the man who is the video's subject for behaving like that, but I'm more disappointed in the people around the camera guy who kept telling the victim to shut up rather than standing up for him. Shame on all of them for mistaking silence for peace.
     
  28. Critic_Critic

    Critic_Critic More Trophy Points Please

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    Took a look at that video, but I couldn't tell much about any people around Hector telling him to shut up. Other than notably Mike's wife, though she was seemingly trying to settle both of them, she DID tell Hector to shut up as though he was antagonizing him. Not that this is an excuse, but I would definitely assume Mike to have mental health problems, and when that happens, it can honestly make it that you just cannot deal with him rationally, and so trying to have even a sensible confrontation with him (and on camera to boot) is very likely just going to escalate tensions. Still, I'm floored that she didn't draw upon the common sense solution, which would have been to simply go away, to another part of the room, and end the affair right there. What is this weird "he attacked me by speaking a foreign language in my presence, wherein I could fully roll out of earshot" logic?

    As for the other bystanders, AND the security guy, Hector does point to them on camera at the end of the video to commend them for being good people. Truthfully, Hector seems like a sweetheart, and I'm sorry to see that he had to go through that. Best wishes that things go his way in life.

    By the way, just for anyone's perusal if desired, it seems like Buzzfeed's news team were the ones reporting on the situation: https://www.buzzfeed.com/salvadorhernandez/a-man-went-off-on-a-racist-tirade-because-a-guy-talked-to
     
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  29. YouAskedForIt

    YouAskedForIt More Trophy Points Please

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    I was thinking the same thing. My suspicion that it was an airport (instead of a casino where they were all playing Keno or something) was right, and that seems more like a reason for them to stay somewhat put. But yes, I'm guessing it was more of a matter of Mike standing his ground while being "attacked."
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  30. JimB

    JimB More Trophy Points Please

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    I knew Mike's name, but did someone say Hector's and I just didn't hear it?
     

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